How to say
in English?
"tasogareru"
Interview with Natsuki Ueda,
Sunset Concierge at Lake Shinji
July 26, 2023
Original interview was conducted in Japanese
Natsuki Ueda
Ueda was born in 1990 in Okuizumo-cho, Shimane Prefecture, Japan. After graduating from Shimane University, she worked at Walt Disney World Resort in Florida, the U.S., for about a year. Since returning to Japan in 2015, she has been involved in tourism and community development in Shimane as a freelancer. In July 2020, she opened Shinjiko Sunset Cafe in Kishi Park on the eastern shore of Lake Shinji.
Lakeside Cafe Opens Only at Sunset
Hosoda It struck me as such a cool idea when I first heard about a cafe on the shore of Lake Shinji that opens only when the sunset is beautiful. Whether or not the cafe is open totally depends on the weather. It's very interesting, like a gamble or a game. Did you come up with this idea on your own?
Ueda Yes, I did. I felt only such a radical idea could be interesting, probably because I used to work in the entertainment industry, namely Walt Disney World Resort in Florida. Basically no one comes here unless there is a beautiful sunset. I want to serve visitors coming to see the sunset, so I decided that we should close the cafe if no good sunset.
Hosoda Just as in the Disneyland, your purpose is to serve people who come to enjoy attractions.
Ueda Yes. When I returned from the U.S. in 2015, there was completely nothing at this place. There are vending machines now, but back then we didn't even have them. When I worked in Florida, I was always thinking about how to please guests in front of me. So I became itching to do something for people watching the sunset over Lake Shinji. I felt a great opportunity was being lost. Of course, just watching the sunset could be satisfying, but if you have multiple layers of satisfaction on it, you would surely say, "This is such a wonderful place that I want to come again." The sunset over Lake Shinji is really different every day. So I wanted them to come back here to see a different one.
Hosoda Because no two sunsets are the same, you wanted them to become frequent visitors. That's why you wanted to increase the value of sunset.
Ueda Exactly. I started Shinjiko Sunset Cafe to provide service that could add value to the sunset.
Hosoda When you first pitched your idea of Sunset Cafe to potential collaborators, did you get immediate understanding and acceptance?
Ueda No. Not at all. I was only 24 or 25 years old at the time. So they were probably like, "What the hell is this girl talking about?" Naturally, it's not easy to understand something that you can't actually see. Only after the cafe was built here did they start understanding the concept. Sunset Cafe has been operated for 2 years since 2020 as one of social experiments of the city of Matsue. I am glad that the city considered the experiment as successful, and now the cafe is a part of the overarching tourism project of the city.
Shinjiko Sunset Cafe looks like a tiny house of charming colors like stained glass
As Self-proclaimed Sunset Concierge
Hosoda You have interesting ideas, and you are also good at branding or naming. For example, you call yourself a "yuhi (sunset) concierge."
Ueda That is completely self-proclaimed and not a qualification recognized by any esteemed organization, but, having a concierge when you travel gives you a sense of safety, right?
Hosoda What kind of service can we expect from the sunset concierge?
Ueda Obviously you can ask me about the sunset. For example, "Can I see a good sunset today?" You can also ask me, "Where do you recommend me to go after watching the sunset?" or "Where can I find a good restaurant?" When you travel, you want to know what the locals are saying, right? For example, shops that the locals often go to.
Hosoda Yes. I'd rather go to a shop that a local tells me personally than a shop that's big on a guidebook.
Ueda I believe most visitors feel the same way. So I would like to help them not only with the sunset but also with their sightseeing.
Hosoda In Europe and the U.S. we have to tip after receiving concierge services. Should we do the same for the sunset concierge here?
Ueda No, no. I don't think I could accept it (lol).
Hosoda Sunset Cafe is run by a few staff members besides you. Are they also sunset concierges?
Ueda I'm the only one who calls myself that. I don't think other staff bother to think about it.
Hosoda What day of the week should we go to see the sunset concierge?
Ueda I usually work Wednesdays and Saturdays. What's fun is getting familiar with people and having conversations with them. It's a lot of fun just to say, "Today's sunset was beautiful, wasn't it?" Even on my days off, I often come here to see the sunset, so please feel free to talk to me.
Happily explaining one of original drinks to a customer, Ueda is the one and only sunset concierge
Like Gamble against Nature
Hosoda The San'in region, where Shimane Prefecture is located, has many rainy and cloudy days. When such days continue, don't you want to open the cafe even if you know the sun won't come out?
Ueda No. I don't think I will be tempted to open the cafe just because it's been cloudy for many days. The thing is, I get annoyed most when it is difficult to see if the sun is going to come out or not. For example, it's a cloudy day and the sun doesn't seem to come out, so we decide not to open the cafe, but the sky unexpectedly clears just before the evening. On a day like that, all of us close curtains in our rooms so that we can't see the sunset outside. Otherwise, due to the fact that the cafe is closed at such a wonderful sunset, we would want to cry (lol).
Hosoda It certainly happens from time to time around Lake Shinji. It has been cloudy during the day, but suddenly it clears up and you can see the sunset.
Ueda On a day like that, we feel really sorry for visitors. Matsue Travel Association announces the "Sunset Index," predicting whether the sunset will be seen or not. If the index is 50 or more, we open the cafe without fail.
Hosoda At what point in the day do you decide to open it or not?
Ueda The Sunset Index is updated a few times a day. The last update before the cafe opens is around 1 p.m. So we usually make the decision around 1 p.m. But, just because the index is 40, it doesn't necessarily mean we won't open the cafe. When the index is 40, sometimes it remains cloudy, but sometimes it will be sunny and the sun will come out. And, the next update is around 4 p.m. We may have already opened the cafe by 4 p.m., but the index sometimes becomes zero.
Hosoda For customers, it's like a gamble against nature. And probably for you, too.
Ueda Yes, for us too. But, that is the fun part.
Hosoda Do you know any other cafes doing the same thing?
Ueda I've not heard of it. After all, it's an irregular operation, so I don't think it's easy. We were able to manage the cafe this way partly because I am a freelancer. Now we run the cafe with support from a local company called Chiikiokoshi, which I get involved with as a staff member and a planner.
Hosoda On sunny days you open the cafe, but, if the index is 40, you have to make a difficult decision. Even with help from those around you, it seems troublesome. Wouldn't it be easier to run the cafe regularly regardless of the weather?
Ueda If we open the cafe regardless of the weather, it will be just a normal cafe with shorter business hours. If I were a customer, I would find my cafe much more interesting than a normal cafe. And I also knew it would get good publicity.
Lake Shinji on a day with the Sunset Index of 40. A spectacular view in its own way, so it's hard to decide whether to open the cafe or not
Okuizumo Kid Who Gets First Job in U.S.
Hosoda You were born in Okuizumo-cho, Shimane Prefecture, and graduated from Shimane University. At first, you tried to find your first job only in Shimane. But you couldn't find a job that would enable you to do what you wanted to do. Then, you changed your mind drastically. You applied for a job at Walt Disney World Resort in Florida. It was a rare case, wasn't it?
Ueda Yes, it was. Many people have asked me, "How come?" Originally I had no intention of leaving Shimane. What I wanted to do was something for inbound tourism (i.e, for visitors from abroad), and I started looking for a job in Shimane. But, at the time, options seemed limited, and I couldn't find anything I wanted to do.
Hosoda Exactly what did you want to do?
Ueda A job that provides service, in a broader sense, for visitors from abroad. Such as, planning for a tourism project, which I'm doing now. Looking back, I think I could have found a few options back then. For example, I could have learned a lot by working at a ryokan, a Japanese-style inn. But... it's just that my nature...
Hosoda ...didn't like to be bound to...?
Ueda Well, I was still very young then, so... I think I wanted to aim for something broader, higher, and more worldwide (lol). So I said to myself, "Life is long. It's okay if I can't do now what I want to do. Instead, I should get a job from which I'll learn something for my future. If so, I want to learn it in the best environment." Then, by chance, there was a job posting in Florida.
Hosoda When you were at university, you studied abroad for a short time at the University of Arkansas. Having said that, weren't you afraid of working in another country?
Ueda Of course, I was. That was the most difficult decision in my life.
Hosoda But you were more excited than afraid?
Ueda Yes. Besides, I had made up my mind that I would definitely come back to Shimane. I didn't mean to live there for a long time. I decided exactly how long I would stay there before leaving Shimane. Then I just tried to learn as much as possible in order to do what I wanted to do in Japan. My time over there passed in a blink of an eye.
Hosoda What kind of work did you do at Walt Disney World Resort?
Ueda I worked at the Japan Pavilion to introduce Japanese culture. There are four theme parks there, one of which is like a world's fair. And, that park has pavilions of some countries, such as Italy, France, China, and Japan. At the Japan Pavilion, a cast from Japan like me introduces Japanese culture to the guests in English.
Hosoda That's directly connected to your current work.
Ueda Yes. It was a job that I wanted to do in Shimane, which was to convey the goodness of Japan to visitors from abroad, so it was rewarding. I was in charge of traditional Japanese culture. I wore a kimono every day.
Hosoda Huh, I'd love to see that.
Ueda Wearing a kimono, I was working at the section to introduce traditional culture, such as bonsai and Japanese swords. I put a tag with the word "SHIMANE" on my chest, so that it would be a conversation starter. Some of my colleagues were from Tokyo, Osaka, and Hiroshima, and those cities were well known. But, in my one-year stint, I met only 7 guests who knew of Shimane. Even though tens of thousands visited every day...
Hosoda Only 7 in a year?
Ueda It was shocking. But, while introducing traditional Japanese culture, I realized that Shimane has a lot of things that guests loved about Japan. Let's say I was talking with one guest about bonsai, and I found out he loved Japanese gardens. I could say to him, "Shimane has the Adachi Museum of Art in Yasugi."
Hosoda The best Japanese garden in the world for 20 consecutive years.
Ueda "How is it possible that you don't know of Shimane?" I wondered. "What you say you like about Japan is in Shimane, too." In a nutshell, we were falling short in conveying the goodness of Shimane. That's what I was made to realize.
Hosoda Do you think our efforts are not enough?
Ueda Hmm... I think cities like Tokyo, Osaka, and Hiroshima have a lot of fun places, of course, but isn't it getting more and more popular to get away from those cities and go to the countryside?
Hosoda I think more and more people want traditional Japanese stuff rather than the convenience of cities.
Ueda I agree. In that sense I believe Shimane finally has a great chance.
Ueda is busy with preparations before opening. It's hot inside because there's no air conditioning, but nothing keeps her from taking advantage of the chance that finally came to Shimane
Going Overseas Changes Your Personality?
Hosoda You have been also working with students from Shimane University. I am often asked by young people saying, "I want to go overseas..." Do you have any message for such young people?
Ueda If you want to go, just go without worrying too much. I am glad that I went overseas because it fundamentally changed the way I see things. The reason I fell in love with Shimane when I was at university and the reason I fell in love with Shimane after returning from Florida are quite different. Going overseas was a good opportunity for me to objectively reconsider things that I had taken for granted. And, my personality has also changed a lot.
Hosoda How has it changed?
Ueda I was originally an introvert and not good at showing up in public and speaking in front of people. My mentor from elementary school came to the cafe one day and said, "Your personality seems to have changed." Going overseas not only gave me an objective view on Shimane and Matsue but also gave a way to understand myself better than before. Like, my strength and my weakness... Going overseas was a good opportunity to face myself.
Hosoda I lived in the U.S. for a long time. I don't think people who talk to me for the first time today will think of me as an introvert. But I used to be an introvert, and I don't think it's changed fundamentally. What might have changed in me through living overseas was that I became more determined not to miss the opportunity that was right in front of me.
Ueda Oh, that sounds true for me, too.
Hosoda Now I tend to think like this. "If I talk to this person now, something nice might happen. Or I would be just embarrassed, but I have to take a chance." I don't know if my personality has changed. Probably I just became able to show what I've had all along but failed to show.
Ueda Maybe so did I. I was a kid with a strong spirit, and once I decided to do something on my own, I would definitely do it. However, through puberty I started to worry about how people looked at me, and I became a person who didn't say much. But, going overseas, I came to think that I had to cherish every moment, and it would be a shame to waste it. If you go out into the big world, you never know if you can meet the person you met there again. Besides, people in Japan tend to think silence is a virtue. It's like, "I will not say what I think because I don't know what he would think." So I felt very refreshing when I realized the U.S. is a society where people say, "It's your fault because you didn't say anything" or "You are responsible because you didn't say anything." That was one of lessons I learned overseas. Now, I don't think it's very good not to tell people what I think.
Original "Tasogare Beer" is sold only during the summer. "It has a citrus flavor with less bitterness, so it's good for women too," says Ueda. Unlike the U.S., it is allowed to drink alcohol in public places. What a fun!
Lake Shinji Becomes Theater?!
Hosoda Besides managing the cafe, do you have any other projects you are currently working on?
Ueda Yes, I do. Matsue has many attractive waterfronts other than Lake Shinji. For example, the Ohashi River and the Horikawa River. In collaboration with people involved in such waterfronts, one tourism project is underway to convey the charm of those waterfronts, and I am in charge of its secretariat.
Hosoda Matsue is said to be the "City of Water,” so there are many waterfronts.
Ueda Right. People have been working independently for such waterfronts. It would be great if we could make a plan together and work together. If each one of us is doing it alone, it's not easy to achieve our goals. So we want to work together and increase our presence.
Hosoda And you are the secretariat of it.
Ueda Because I'm the youngest and pettiest (lol). I am very glad to work with them as a gofer.
Hosoda I remember you were trying out a small sheet that would allow you to sit on the lawn in front of the cafe.
Ueda That's my personal project. Actually, Sunset Cafe is just one part of a much larger concept, Shinjiko Sunset Theater.
Hosoda Theater?
Ueda Yes. I am afraid this concept is even more difficult to understand... If you consider Lake Shinji as a theater, the sunset could be a show on the theater, a show that changes every day... If we let our imagination run wild and look at the lake and the sunset from such a perspective, it could be even more fun... In my imagination, today's performers are the sunset, Yomegashima Island, swans, and...
Hosoda A fisherman...
Ueda Yes, a fisherman. Performers also change day by day. Considering the lake as a theater, we can create a pamphlet telling a story based on the history of the lake... We might provide a different kind of amusement than just watching the sunset.
Hosoda Launching the concept of Sunset Theater with some supportive material, you plan to add value to the view of sunset.
Ueda Right. I actually created pamphlets and tickets for Sunset Theater.
Hosoda Did you already do that?
Ueda Yes, I did it experimentally. The cafe we have today didn't exist yet at the time. So, with the permission from the city, we used a wooden box, slightly larger than a telephone booth, to run a cafe and handed out such material. Waiting for the sunset can be boring, so you may want something to read. And, many people only see the sunset and go home without learning much about the lake. So I wondered, "If I could give them a proper story of Lake Shinji, they might be more interested and want to come again." As a result of the experiment, I found it's not easy to get the concept of the theater to be understood. The concept of the cafe is easier, so it was realized sooner than the theater.
Hosoda So, Sunset Cafe should be considered as the concession stand of Sunset Theater?
Ueda Exactly. And, the sunset concierge should be working at the theater. There are many sunset-watching spots all over the country. If you have a story even just for yourself, the sunset here can be more delightful, and it will be a different experience from other spots. I would like to make the sunset over Lake Shinji different from others.
Hosoda What an interesting idea! You are going to present a totally new way to watch the sunset.
A ticket and a pamphlet Ueda created for the experiment of Sunset Theater. "Welcome to the World's Biggest Theater" and "Show is on 365 Days a Year" were the catchlines
Infectious happy smiles in the wooden cafe
Tasogareru, Such Wonderful Word
Hosoda I would like people overseas to know about your cafe and the lake. So I am going to translate this Japanese interview into English. But I found a problem when I was reading the brochure of the cafe. The catchline of the cafe is "Kokoro yukumade tasogareru." I have wondered how I could translate it. The website of the cafe actually has an English translation of it, which is "Enjoy the view of Lake Shinji’s sunset to your heart’s content." While "to your heart’s content" is a good translation of "kokoro yukumade," I am afraid that "enjoy the view of sunset" is hugely different from "tasogareru."
Ueda Yes. They are very different.
Hosoda So I have to ask you. What kind of thoughts do you put into the Japanese expression, "tasogareru"?
Ueda As you say, it's not just to "enjoy" something. It's not just about having fun. I couldn't find an English word that perfectly matched "tasogareru," so I gave priority to clarity and settled on the current English translation... First of all, few people does "tasogareru" when they're having so much fun. Instead, they probably feel a little tired. But, they still retain their positive side. They come to see the sunset today, so that they can do their best tomorrow... In my interpretation, "tasogareru" is about trying to be a little more positive by vacantly watching the sun setting slowly.
Hosoda That's not easy to express with just one English word.
Ueda No, it's not. So I had to settle on "enjoy." I wish I could express the nuances of "tasogareru" in English...
Hosoda In the English translation of this interview, I would like to use the word "tasogareru" as it is and add the supplementary explanation to it as you just did. That is, "tasogareru" is not just about having fun. "Tasogareru" is rather connected to despondency. When a person who is down but wants to be a little more positive comes to see the sunset, you can say what the person is doing is "tasogareru."
Ueda Exactly. It's just a little thing. It's like, "I can be a little happier than now." That's why I don't like to do overly spectacular things here. Someone once said to me, "I thought you are a person who would like to do a big thing," just because I used to work at Disney. I said to the person what I just said. What I would like to do here is to give visitors a little thing that might help them to be a little more positive, without being pushy. That's why our policy at the cafe is to "support people who do tasogareru."
Hosoda I think... that is what "yorisou" means, too.
Ueda Yes. We believe all we can do for a person who is doing "tasogareru" is just "yorisou," which basically means "to stand close to someone." When you feel a little tired, come to see the sunset and get a little encouraged. It would make us very happy.
Hosoda Do you believe the setting sun over Lake Shinji has such power?
Ueda Yes, absolutely. Come to Matsue and see it!
Ueda takes a picture of the sunset and posts it on SNS before closing the cafe. She is just one of us who are encouraged by the setting sun over Lake Shinji
Miserable back view of the interviewer, who tried to catch a nice Suzuki (Japanese sea bass) on the shore in front of Sunset Cafe in order to impress Ueda but failed as usual. Could this man really be the star of the show?
Masahiro Hosoda
Hosoda was born in 1966 in Matsue, Shimane Prefecture, Japan. He worked as a magazine editor and translator first in Tokyo and then in New York, the U.S. Since returning to Japan in 2014, he has been working as an English translator and interpreter in Matsue. As an amateur fisherman, he does the bilingual blog "American saltwater lures can catch Japanese fish?" He is also a rapper known as "MC Ganta."